Will People Really Burn In Hell For Eternity?
The Biblical understanding of hell has been one of the greatest controversies throughout church history. The issue has undergone many debates. The traditional view over the centuries has been generally a picture of a dark cave on fire, filled with unimaginable physical torment that never ends and is irrevocable. It has been the subject of famous sermons and comic strips alike.
Since we are speaking about existence after death, that great unknown, we must rely primarily upon prophecy. Few other documents give us as much solid and consistent insight as the Holy Bible, although those truths can be difficult to comprehend.
In my limited study of the issue, I've been compelled to look at differing viewpoints such as Conditionalism, that souls are naturally mortal unless granted immortality by God; Annihilationism, the belief that sinners are completely destroyed either before or after a time of punishment; and Universalism, that all humans will eventually be reconciled to God and saved from hell in the afterlife. All of these views have been supported by theologians and Bible scholars, some greatly renown.
Conditionalism is argued mainly from the Scriptures 1 Timothy 6:15-16 that "God ...alone is immortal" and 2 Timothy 1:10 that "Christ Jesus... has brought immortality... through the gospel." Many Eastern Orthodox theologians advocate this view of the mortality of the soul.
Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are two churches among others that commonly accept the Annihilationism theory, although the belief is gaining more acceptance as legitimate for some Protestant theologians. Their main Scriptural support is Matthew 10:28, "... fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" and also John 3:16, that unbelievers will perish and not have everlasting life. They believe that the second death spoken of in Revelation 21:8 is the death of the soul.
Universalism, a belief that was held by people such as M K Ghandi, George MacDonald, and possibly the beloved C.S. Lewis, is based largely on the verses that speak of God as loving and merciful, that Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it, and from other scriptures such as Luke 3:6, "And all mankind will see God's salvation."
The study of hell or Gehenna is one worth doing in my opinion. The documented records in the Bible have much more to say about it than I had previously realized and many words about death and the after-life were spoken by Christ Himself. Our belief about heaven and hell profoundly affects the way we live presently as well as vice versa. What purpose is one without the other?
I believe that there is much indication that rewards and punishments will be administered in various degrees in accordance with works performed while individuals were on earth. There also seems to be a strong gesture for the exception of innocents such as unborn babies, children and mentally challenged or disabled and those who never heard the gospel in this regard. But all of these propositions are for another post.
While the aforementioned views seem to have valid biblical support, I would like to deal primarily with refuting the Annihilationist view from Scripture which, I think, will also ultimately oppose the others. How the Bible defines death and describes hell is of great significance to our understanding. For the sake of brevity, I will assume the reader has already had some exposure to biblical doctrine concerning these issues.
The Bible describes the picture of hell differently than many common portrayals which has caused much confusion such as, how can darkness and the fire of hell exist in the same place? Darkness in the Bible is often figurative such as in John 3:19, "...men loved darkness rather than light...." Eternal fire is also often symbolic. The fire and brimstone of Revelation 20:10 appears to be a metaphor (along with the "wine of the wrath of God" as well as the rest of the book of Revelation) referencing verses in the Old Testament.
Although darkness and fire are most likely figurative terms, the Bible describes hell in other, more literal, conscious terms of torment: like a wandering star, a prison, a burning garbage dump, dark, uncomfortably hot; it feels like perpetual death. It is where the full are now thirsty and hungry, the rich experience poverty, cowards are consumed with terror, the proud are rebuked, those who laughed are now weeping, the peaceful are now fighting, liars are lied to, kidnappers are held captive, etc. Some will be physically tortured.
As a side note, the question always inevitably turns up regarding the atrocity of the whole situation of hell and this is why many have sought an alternative to it. How could a loving God torture people? Why not simply place these souls out of existence. I do not feel that I have adequately understood this concept myself but I think it has much to do with the fact of justice and that love and mercy can not exist unless equity, fairness and standards of righteousness are upheld. Undiminished justice is a difficult truth to accept, especially in our modern, "civilized" day but it is a truth nonetheless. The Bible as well as reality are clear: what we sow is what we will reap.
Hell and the second death are believed by most Christians to be the ultimate separation from God (Matthew 7:21-23, et al). Since God is omnipresent "even the highest heavens can not contain Him", He will also be present in hell (Revelation 14:9-11). The separation from God is a relational one, an absence of experiencing His mercy and grace. Could part of hell's torment be for souls to see and know the goodness of God and yet be unable to experience it? The parable of Luke 16:19-31 reminds us that nothing will be able to change the minds of those who reject Jesus Christ, even in the after-life.
Some annihilationists believe that punishment for the unrighteous will be served for a time and then these souls will be completely annihilated. But "eternal" is the key word in the Bible. Hell is described as a place where "their worm [figurative] does not die" (Mark 9:44, 46, 48) and Matthew 25:46 could not make the terms more clear, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." To say that the punishment ends at any time in eternity, one must completely ignore the term "eternal" as well as the definition of it. It means without beginning or end, outside of time, endless, perpetual, changeless.
In Genesis 2 after the creation story, mankind was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would surely die. Many theologians interpret the Hebrew word for "day" as figurative in Genesis, but it is clear in Genesis 2 that something changed the very moment that man ate from the wrong tree. The change was that he was now susceptible to certain horrors such as pain, disease, suffering and death, i.e. torment. The realities of hell began to be experienced on earth. Biblical death is interpreted by many as "in death always dying".
God told Adam that if he ate of the wrong tree he would surely die but he did not die. In the Bible, death never means extinction but always separation. Physical death is the separation of the body and soul. Spiritual death is the separation between man and God. "Dead" to sin and the law is the separation between Christians and sin and the law. Marital death is the separation between two spouses. There is never any indication that death is extinction, but only separation, and this belief has been scrutinized repeatedly yet held consistently by Bible scholars throughout all of religious history.
The biblical definition of death is contrary to the finite human understanding of it. The Bible not only defines death, destruction and perishing as ongoing existence, but it describes hell as an eternal death. In the prophetic books as well as throughout the Bible, we are clearly warned. If one seeks to understand truth according to the Bible, I can not see any way around the fact that hell and its inhabitants are eternal.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 NASB
Comments
You make some pretty sweeping statements here that are just not true. One is that this has been one of the "greatest controversies throughout church history." It hasn't, which is why your view is called the Traditionalist view, because it's been the traditional view of the church for a long time. Personally, I think it's the traditional view because all you really have to support it is tradition, as opposed to Scripture. Another statement you make is that "in the Bible, death never means extinction, but always separation." You can't support that at all from Scripture. Another statement is that "many have sought an alternative" to the traditional view because of the "atrocity" of the traditional view. I think an objective person without the background of the traditional view and the ingrained ideas of what the term "eternal punishment" means would not necessarily come to the traditional view of hell. Especially if they were to take into account the plethora of verses in Scripture that refer to the destruction, perishing, and ceasing to exist of the wicked.
Another statement you make is "There is never any indication that death is extinction, but only separation, and this belief has been scrutinized repeatedly yet held consistently by Bible scholars throughout all of religious history." Are you kidding? Has it been "one of the greatest controversies throughout church history" or has it been held "consistently by Bible scholars throughout all of religious history." To be honest, I'm not sure you have read nearly enough Bible Scholars or enough of church history to make these kinds of statements.
I haven't seen one verse in Scripture which states that the lost will go on suffering for all of eternity. I've seen Scriptures which refer to an "eternal fire" (which you've already said is figurative) and "worm that does not die" (which you've already said was figurative.) However, for examples of this type of language, see Isaiah 34:10. He was speaking of the judgment of Edom. The writer of Revelation borrows this language almost word for word. Without the traditional understanding that you have of Revelation, as a New Testament believer, you would have read Revelation 14:10,11 in the context of Isaiah 34:10, knowing there is not REALLY still smoke rising in Edom, that the "unquenchable fire" did indeed at one point go out, etc. The language is meant to express that the judgment is FINAL and COMPLETE.
At the end of Revelation, both hell AND death are cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the end of death, and the end of hell. They are gone forever, destroyed in the lake of fire. Death is gone at this point. Yet, the unbelievers are somehow still experiencing death over and over again for all eternity even though death and hell have both been destroyed?
Eternal punishment (which is death), everlasting destruction, eternal death: these terms speak of extinction if read without a traditional bias and from a biblical point of view. Eternal speaks of the finality of it of the consequences, not a duration of time, not ongoing.
"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever would believe in Him would not PERISH but have everlasting life."
Perish means to cease to exist.
"Do not fear man who can destroy the body, but fear God who can destroy both body AND SOUL in hell."
Destroy means to put out of existence.
Please provide me with one Scripture that states this clearly that the lost will remain alive to suffer for all eternity. It should be fairly easy, for such an accepted doctrine, to find a verse that states that the wicked will suffer forever and ever and never die. (Be put out of existence.)
How is the suffering of the lost followed by their extinction undiminished justice??? You're saying that the only punishment you can see as justice for not believing the gospel is someone suffering for all of eternity? You're saying that "justice and mercy cannot exist" unless someone somewhere is suffering horribly? So there was no justice and mercy before God created hell? (Which I should remind you is eventually destroyed in the lake of fire.)
I know I'm wasting my time as far as your concerned on here. We've been over this on Larry's page and you didn't hear anything I said, but I thought I'd post my thoughts on here to balance out what I believe to be a blight on God's character placed there by the church as they assimilated the idea of the immortality of the human soul put forth by Plato. You knocked over enough straw men in your blog that anyone would listen to what you're saying without seeing any alternatives. The traditional view of hell is a terrible error, and I couldn't be happier that more and more people are seeing this and moving towards Conditionalism as they escape the Traditionalist view and the fear (not of God, but of suffering forever and ever) that comes with it.
P.S. Elizabeth, I don't think you've actually read a very thorough treatment of conditionalism. I suggest you do before you post any more on this, as you seem to have a pretty severe understanding of the Biblical evidence to support it. Your understanding of it seems limited to bits and pieces you've read on the internet or gathered in blog discussions. I have a couple of books you can borrow if you really are interested in knowing what you believe and why.
@Christian: Just because the doctrine of Hell is orthodox does not mean it is therefore uncontroversial. There is no doubt that the doctrine is and always has been hotly debated. Your lengthy comment belies your claim. The doctrine is controversial because nobody can reconcile it with a God of Love without shutting one eye and the great apologists always skirt around it in public debate. True, most, if not all, great Christian thinkers have spoken seriously of Hell (as Jesus did) but with wildly different content and scope.
The popular or classical view of hell (burning torture for non-Christians) is so far from the Bible as to be a caricature. Nevertheless influential Christians such as Carson, Piper and Keller seem to hold it. Indeed this perception carries perverse consequences because it says it's more important to convert people than to care for them and it's a major argument against the Social Gospel. What a horror! far removed from Christ's Gospel of sight for the blind, liberation for the captives, food for the hungry. They've spiritualised His message so that they don't have to do anything for their neighbours except witness!
The fact is the Bible is ambiguous on the fate of non-Christians. It teaches universal atonement and limited atonement. It teaches mortality of all humans with eternal life as a gift then speaks of a fire that is never quenched. It speaks of fire in regard to testing one's works and theologians turn these passages into doctrines of Hell or purgatory.
The Bible is not a book of Law, it's not a Systematic Theology, it's not even a complete description of God. The Bible's function is to bring us to the living risen Christ in whom God is revealed gloriously and intimately. It's a revelation of who God is and our response must be to that revealed reality. The God I see revealed in Jesus is loving, for whom mercy triumphs over justice. Attempts to define God from the Bible apart from personal acquaintance are doomed to distortion. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
It would be just like God to shockingly rescue all people the haughty Christians have condemned to Hell just as he shockingly rescued the Gentile "Sinners" the Pharisaic Jews had condemned to Sheol. God is a master at turning the tables and raising the low.
Christianity in the Raw, thanks for the question. I think the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is widely accepted as a parable, in which case drawing anything out of it other than the main point being communicated and formulating doctrine with it in that way is dangerous.
However, if it is not a parable, but an actual story that Jesus is telling, it still presents no issues for conditionalism. Conditionalism does not deny that there will be suffering, just that it will not be eternal. Also, if this is a picture of the final state of man, then apparently, there will be able to be communication between those in heaven and those in hell, right? Another thing to notice is that the time period of this torment the rich man is enduring is pre-judgment day, not post-judgment day. People are still on earth, and the gospel is still being preached. God's final, eternal judgment, according to the conditionalist, is after (or on) the day of judgment.
Hope that helps.
Hi from the Catholic, Elizabeth! After reading that 1st post I'm a bit reticent to say anything, but here goes.
In my opinion, arguments over whether hell/suffering for the damned is eternal, or if it/they is/are destroyed or not miss the mark completely.
Let me 1st refer to the story where Jesus is asked if we will be reunited with our loved ones in heaven. To (poorly) paraphrase His answer, we will, but we will be so enraptured by God's love that it won't matter. IMO, He was trying to keep his disciples on point & in focus. Understand that God's love is overwhelming & all-encompassing, & don't worry about the things that won't matter to you if you're blessed enough to get there. (There is, of course, far more than can be discussed about this but I'm trying to make a point, LOL).
I view the topic of hell in this same vain. Whether or not there is actual fire & physical pain/torture is something only God knows for certain. If we understand that the ultimate torture- hell- is the complete separation from God & His mercy, that is all that matters. That alone (separation from God) is enough to cause a soul the deepest agony. The rest doesn't matter. All that does matter is how we choose to glorify God in heart, mind, & deed.
On point & in focus.
Okay, flame away...
Regarding the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, what is the principle teaching behind it but the punishment and reward as a result of people's works while on earth? Furthermore, would Jesus, who knew all about the after-life, really give us a false idea of it in His teaching?
This was my whole problem in Larry's debate. Whenever I quoted a Scripture, it was explained away as "out of context" or "that's figurative" or "it was only speaking about a certain small group of people at a certain time". While context and interpretation are extremely important, it is possible to use that excuse to overlook certain truths as well.
A symbol or metaphor is used to teach a literal truth. Where "their worm does not die" is figurative for something literal. What is the literal truth? That hell is eternal.
Also, Matt 25:46 is the Scripture you keep asking for: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The punishment is eternal and as much as I want otherwise, I just can't see anything figurative or out of context about it.
@Marc: It would be just like God to do something completely unexpected and I love that you brought that up. For Him to reverse the prophecy for the unrighteous however, He would need to still remain true to justice and its eternal consequences, like He did for believers. Honestly, it doesn't make sense in my mind that there would be such a terrible punishment as an eternal hell, except for maybe the fact that earth is the one testing ground of one's true allegiance to God, and that hell's inhabitants will choose to remain there by rejecting Christ, even after experiencing such a place.
@Yosemite: That is a good point about God's all encompassing love, but what is love without the freedom and necessity to also express wrath? All of the Scriptures in the Bible that explain God's wrath and judgment ("He is a consuming fire") are just as true as His character of love; His wrath does not take anything at all away from His love. Both are fully true.
I wholeheartedly agree that separation from Him is enough to cause a soul the deepest agony. I would think that this is mainly because all goodness comes from Him. It's difficult to imagine a place where His goodness is withheld. Even my mind alone does not want to go there.
Elizabeth, if you really want a thorough treatment of "Lazarus and the Rich Man," here is a decent one: http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html. Either way, I haven't for one second denied the punishment of the wicked if that is the point of the parable. It seems like you think the conditionalist doesn't believe in any punishment.
Or maybe you think the only punishment appropriate for sins commited during a finite period here on earth is a punishment of infinite duration? I'm not sure I understand where the "justice" is in that. Before you respond, remember that the redemption of that sin for those who put their faith in Christ was accomplished by the Son of God taking on a human, temporal form and dying a finite death on a finite earth.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that an "unquenchable fire" and a "worm that does not die" is not figurative, because in the Old Testament, it IS figurative. What is the purpose of the worm? It completely finishes the devouring of that which has been destroyed. The worm consumes the dead flesh of those who have been buried. What better way to explain the complete consumation of the unrighteous than through a worm that dies not, but instead lives to completely consume its food. It is the worm that does not die, not the unrighteous.
Lastly, you continually refer to Matthew 25:46, but you really need to find a verse that explains your position better. I believe in "eternal punishment." I don't believe in everlasting torment, but I believe in eternal punishment. I believe in a punishment (being death - explained many times elsewhere in Scripture) that has eternal consequences. There is no resurrection from this death. It is the second death. It is eternal. it is the fulfillment of John 3:16, wherein the unbeliever perishes. It is the fulfillment of Jesus' warning that God will destroy BOTH "body and soul in hell." And it is the punishment for sins, "For the consequences of sin is death."
His wrath does not take anything at all away from His love. Both are fully true.
I agree. I fear the wrath of God; not God Himself. That is why I don't think mercy erases justice. He is a merciful, loving God, but He is (more than) entitled to justice, which He alone can miter out. As a Catholic, I do believe in purgatory. Our belief is that as sinners, none of us deserve to go directly into heaven- that our souls must be purified before doing so, because we have stained them with our sins. Purgatory, in our belief, is an amt. of time determined by God that the soul is separated from him, thereby being punished- receiving justice- for the sins committed on earth. Because Jesus redeemed us in His blood, we are released from purgatory to eternal life in heaven. The damned, on the other hand, go to hell- the ultimate, complete, & eternal separation from God with all of the tortures that go with it.
And like you, Elizabeth, my mind can't even go there. Thanks to Jesus, it doesn't have to- on point & in focus!
Thank you for allowing me to share my viewpoint with you.
I came across an interesting study of what the early church believed today and thought I would share it. This is not intended to prove anything. It's just interesting food for thought since people so often view the Conditionalist approach as being an unorthodox, fringe belief.
"Furthermore, we have discovered that almost all of the Church Fathers who wrote before A.D. 200 were Conditionalists, and that most of those who wrote between then and A.D. 310 were Naturalists. We have concluded that Conditional Immortality was the original, and predominant, doctrine of the early Church."
http://drjohn.blogster.com/doctrine-immortality-early
Amen yosemite! On point and in focus: Jesus rarely "answered questions" as we would put it. One might say he "avoided questions" and skirted around the issue but he actually corrected misunderstandings implicit in the question and gave the answer that person NEEDED to hear and not the one they WANTED to hear.
For example: if someone asked "Hell is not that hot is it?" we should not say "yes" or "no" but think about the assumptions present and say: "Here is how you avoid hell". Again, uf someone says "Where is God" the assumption is God is physical and we should not say "here" or "there" but "Where is He not?" or "Where is tomorrow?" or just describe God and how you find him. I think Jesus' method has great potential to help us in such evangelistic and apologetic discussions.
Nick from Hawaii here.
Unless we live in a cave we have probably heard of all the talk of “Torture” in the news lately with CIA tactics being uncovered.
Interesting how most people with a conscience can see such a thing is just morally wrong and fiendish.
I was thinking what if a person who commits such acts is a good person but has a side of them that is dark and sadistic. Would we be attracted to such a person? Would we want to call him our friend?
Take for example, Hitler. Say there was a side of him that seemed positive and good. He calls his mother, he goes on picnics with his family on the weekend, he gives to charity but then there is a side of him that tortures people in despicable ways. Would you be drawn to such a person or would such acts repel you away from him?
The Bible combines to teach that “the wicked will be no more.”
Psalm 37:10 (King James Version)
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."
Could not help but think of a passage in Obadiah that tells us that the wicked will become as though “they have never been.”
Obadiah 1:16 (New International Version)
I like the way the NASB puts it:
Obadiah 1:16 (New American Standard Bible)
"Because just as you drank on My holy mountain,All the nations will drink continually.They will drink and swallow And become as if they HAD NEVER EXISTED."
Aloha!
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
Appreciate your expressions Elissabethe,
2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God doesn't desire any to be DESTROYED but desires all to attain to repentance.
This is definitely a good conversation that went on. However, so far I have yet to see people write about what God has actually spoken to them. Each one of us can take bits and pieces of knowledge and bend them to our will and make justifiable statements that allow us to back almost any claims. I think that if you get really anxed about this topic, then I think the most prudent thing to do is to step away from it, kneel in front of the throne, and ask the Lord for the answer. I ask that each one of you try this and then come back to the subject. When I prayed about this before, the Lord showed me this verse:
Matthew 13:42 (New Living Translation)42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I know this does not answer everyone's questions or slows the debate, but I just felt led to place this post. I am not going to go into a large debate with anyone. I pay little attention to "religious" scholars and try my best to stay away from opinions. I merely go by what the Good Book describes and what the Lord speaks to me. I advise that more Christians do the same.
Elissabethe,
Nick from Hawaii again checking in on other blog statements. Here is something I wish you and everyone would consider.
Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man, “Mr. Right” offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves.
"Marry me," he says, "and I will give you a life like you've never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you've ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!"
Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment.
Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, "You are welcome to take more time, but it's only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyeballs plucked from their sockets, your fingers and toes cut off, and continually be burned with a soldering iron every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your life."
What do you suppose would be going through the young woman's mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably.
She might have previously accepted Mr. Right's proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now?
Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she'll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.
Is this God's way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise?
Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn't that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him "Savior" at all.
How merciful can it really be to create a never-ending torture chamber for those who do not want to know or love him?
Could you please get back to me and let me know how you would feel if you were in a blissful place but you knew your family was being tortured?
Sincerely,
Nick
A man named Edward Fudge did extensive research on this topic.
He wrote something a recent blogger, “Phil Christian,” may find worthy of his prayerful consideration regarding the expression, “Gnashing of teeth.”
Check it out:
“Gnashing of teeth. The phrase "grinding of teeth" appears many times in
the OT (see Job 16:9; Ps 35:16; 37:12; Lam 2:16), and it always pictures someone so angry at another that he grinds his teeth in rage, like a mad animal straining at the leash. We see the same usage in the NT, where Stephen's enemies "gnashed their teeth at him" (Acts 7:54).
Traditionalist interpretation has ignored the Biblical usage of this phrase and
has homiletized instead on souls grinding their teeth eternally in excruciating
pain. In the Bible, however, the teeth grind in rage, not particularly in pain-
though there may well be time for that along the way. Ps 112:10 is instructive
concerning the wicked's end in this regard. The verses just before it describe the final glory of God's people. Verse 10 then says: "The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing." Gnash his teeth as he may, the wicked man's rage does him no good in the end. Even as he grinds his teeth, he comes to nothing (the KJV has"melt away").
Traditionalists make "gnashing of teeth" into conscious unending torment. The Bible pictures it as horrible rage—rage that is frustrated by the wicked's own inexorable destruction.”
Submitted respectfully,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
However, I think that God is much more than a husband, although He contains many of the same attributes. He is also the Creator and Judge. Imagine a Judge who allowed atrocious crimes to take place against your children without any consequence. I am glad that He is a merciful judge and can and will forgive sins to those who ask... even the ugliest sinner, He will forgive and cleanse. But that forgiveness means nothing if crimes do not receive any punishment. Again, it's difficult to realize the great sinfulness of sin, because of God's grace.
You can not emphasize the love of God so much that you de-emphasize His severity. Both must have equal value or else neither has any value.
I do not believe that all people will be tortured in hell. I believe that the punishment will be perfectly just... and I also believe that those who are there... will not want to be anywhere else... It is where they have personally chosen to abide and will continue in it even after they are there.
With that said, I have to admit that the thought of anyone going to hell, let alone my dear friends, family or children is extremely difficult for me to accept... but that does not necessarily make it untrue.
Aloha Elissabethe,
Great interaction! Thanks for your thoughts once again. You are 100% right that God is much more than a husband but that illustration would fit anyone really. Think for a moment of a Father doing such a thing to his children. Even for a few minutes. Children can be punished but to torture them for any disobedience is just crazy.
A Judge can punish someone for crimes, even sentencing someone to capital punishment. But never everlasting punishing or torture. We would question his actions and those who carried out such a despicable act as being extreme wouldn’t you say? I really think you need to take a walk around this doctrine with greater scrutiny. I have dedicated much time hearing both sides of this issue. I am certainly not interested in one-sided research.
The reason you cringe at the thought of ever knowing anyone you love being roasted alive is quite normal. It is just hard to imagine God doing this to anyone. It goes against all we know about our Heavenly Father. One thing for sure, God shows no animosity forever.
Micah 7:18 tells us, “God will certainly not hold onto his anger forever, for he is delighting in loving-kindness.”
Psalms 103:9, “God will not for all time keep finding fault, neither will he to time indefinite keep resentful.”
Isaiah 57:16, “For it will not be to time indefinite that I shall contend, nor perpetually that I shall be indignant..”
Can you read one passage when you get a chance? Look up Jeremiah 7:31.
What were some people doing to their own children and how did God feel about it? Did it ever cross God's mind or heart to ever do such a thing?
With deep respect,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
But there are two main obstacles I can not get around in order to believe the same. One, as I mentioned, is the biblical word "eternal" and its biblical concept, and the other is the Bible's teaching of the severity and justice of God.
Although I made it clear that I do not believe that all will be tortured in hell, you continue to assume that is what I believe, so please do not keep putting those words in my mouth. If hell is eternal, this does not mean that all will be physically tortured forever. I also do not believe that babies, children and innocents will be there. And again, I do not believe that anyone would choose heaven if they had the choice.
There are horrible atrocities on earth: child molesting, torturous murder, and terrifying evils. God has wiped out entire nations through drownings and fire. Our minds do not like to think of these things but it does not make them any less true. Life is not all rainbows and I can't imagine heaven being all rainbows either; and would we even want it that way? As much as we don't want evil to exist, there is a purpose for it. Why would God completely annihilate it?
God created hell for Satan and his angels and He does not delight in punishing the wicked, but He would not be God, and His goodness would not reign, unless He did. At this point, people usually ask the question, "Did God create evil? Or does He reward believers at the expense of non-believers?" And this is where the free will comes into the story. There is an imperative purpose for the existence of evil, and this includes the presentation of a free choice.... How can we choose goodness if it is the only option? Evil and those who love evil must always continue to exist, along with its consequences.
Aloha Elissabethe,
Good to hear from you. Sorry if you got the impression that I was somehow telling you what you believe. I am in no position to do that. Just trying to Scripturally reason with you that a God of Love would not roast people alive forever. We wouldn’t conceive of such a thing, and we know that God has more love that all of us put together. (1 John 4:8)
The Bible clearly teaches that “the wages sin pays is DEATH.” (Romans 6:23) As sinners, this is what we deserve, not endless suffering. I appreciate you letting me know the two main obstacles you are having a hard time getting around. I’ve asked my self these very same things.
The first one you mention is “the biblical word "eternal" and its biblical concept.”
First consider, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which says:“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…”
You are correct, when you say, “life is not all rainbows for some,” but notice the penalty of Divine justice is “eternal destruction.” Does this mean they keep getting destroyed over and over? Or rather, can being destroyed be understood as being ruined to extinction?
However, doesn’t the Bible speak of “eternal punishment.” Yes it does. It is called an eternal punishment because, destroyed, the punished will cease to exist forever, never to live again. It is understood, then, not as an “everlasting punishing,” but as a one time punishment that will have everlasting consequences.
Compare Hebrews 6:2 where the phrase “eternal judgment” is found. God is not going to be judging for all eternity; rather he will make one judgment that will have permanent implications. Similarly, He will not be punishing for all eternity, but will punish once with death, and it will be final, permanent, irreversible and eternal.
When it comes to your second obstacle you state, “the Bible's teaching of the severity and justice of God.” I hope you didn't get the idea that I am trying to say that God is not a God of Divine justice. He is. And he tells us there are consequences. For example, His Word tells us that those practicing things he detests will not inherit His Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9 & 10.)
His own Son, Jesus Christ, taught us there are two roads leading to two very different outcomes. Jesus said, “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into DESTRUCTION, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into LIFE, and few are the ones finding it.”
(Matthew 7:13, 14)
Some Bible translations do say, “the highway to hell,” (New Living Translation) and “the road is wide that leads to hell,” (New Century Version) but this is not in the Greek manuscripts at all. The Greek word "hades" is not there. I verified it and you can to.
Wow! I apologize, didn’t mean to write a book. But there is something you bring up that I would like to address. You said, “As much as we don't want evil to exist, there is a purpose for it. Why would God completely annihilate it?”
I have an appointment but will come back to that statement later. From my study of the Bible I have come to know that evil was never part of God’s purpose. It is allowed to exist temporarily for a reason but will eventually be completely gone when God’s Kingdom is firmly established.
The Psalmist David prophesied, “And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalms 37:10, 11)
With deep respect,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
Aloha Elissabethe,
It is obvious you are a thinking person. Not trying to force feed you to believe anything but I am happy that you are giving this “hot topic” a fair hearing. Nice approach. I hope you continue a full, thorough examination using the inspired sacred documents we have in God’s Word.
I want you to know that I’m just a person who loves God and the Bible like yourself who wants to know the truth on this controversial topic. I want to base my conclusion, not on personal emotion, or life according to “Nick,” (I’m Joe Schmo by the way), but on Scriptural facts. What the ENTIRE Bible REALLY combines to say.
Definitely can relate to you that it is very difficult to imagine a world without sin or evil because it is all we know for now. It does appear quite normal. Sad to say, we sometimes even get desensitized to things that maybe used to shock us.
Something we both can be positive about is that God is the source of only good things, not evil. (James 1:13) The Bible says, “The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4) Compare Job 34:10 if you can.
God saw only good in what he created. (Genesis 1:31) We don’t have to guess when it comes to the actual origin of sin and evil. WE KNOW just how sin, evil and death was introduced. (Romans 5:12) As a result, you and I and everyone else, without exception, have inherited sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:23) In turn, sin has produced nothing but evil and suffering.
Under inspiration, Soloman gives us something really insightful to contemplate. He said in Ecclesiastes 7:29, “See! This only I have found, that the [true] God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans.” (Compare also Deuteronomy 32:5)
So God gave us a good start, a life free of sin and evil. Humans fell for a lie by Satan the Devil, (a once good angel turned bad), and we are all dying today because of it.
I can explain why God has permitted evil and suffering to continue temporarily on another occasion if you like. There are some things that need to take place before an unprecedented, historic change will occur.
To sum it up, when it is all said and done we have this promise:
“For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. (Isaiah 65:17)
These “former things,” are terrible things we have to experience today because of sin, suffering and evil. It was never apart of God’s purpose to begin with and will be done away with permanently.
This reminds me of what the last book of the Bible tells us. It gives us a preview of better things to come:
“With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.” (Revelation 21:2-5)
Hey look, NO MORE PAIN. :) (torture = pain)
Even Satan the Devil will be “brought to nothing.” (Hebrews 2:14) He himself will be crushed and put out of existence. (Romans 20:20) Hurray!
We have a lot to live for and look forward to don't we? Thanks for listening.
Sincerely,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
I just think the Bible would be more clear on a final death, a death once and for all, but that is never the case. It doesn't necessarily rule it out, but it just seems a far stretch to put an essence of time (life and then death) into eternity. Time exists on earth, not in the afterlife. You're asking me to believe against logic in that case.
Who knows that God doesn't have a further purpose for those who must be sent to hell? What if He created another finite world and used those souls like He does the angels today? Perhaps they (and evil) would have no further effect on those in heaven, but that is not necessarily the case for future creations?
Again, I do not have enough understanding to rule anything out, but at this point I am still not convinced that hell is not eternal. I will continue to consider your arguments however.
Nick, I have a blog at www.unravelthematter.com which brings up controversial subjects. I would love to have your input in these articles via comments and if you would like to write a post defending this subject of annihilation, I would be happy to publish it on that site.
Aloha Elissabethe,
Oops! Sorry. I meant to write Romans 16:20, “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” (New American Standard Bible) It is also noteworthy to reference Ezekiel 28:13-16 where the anointed Cherub is described as having a great start but later being told, “I shall DESTROY you.”
When I shared those passages in Isaiah and Revelation you made this comment, “Also, the future prophecy scriptures could be describing only heaven.” Remember though that the New Earth is being described along with the New Heaven in Revelation 21:1. In 2 Peter 3:13 it tells us “in THESE righteousness will dwell.” Doesn’t make sense to think that the New Earth will be an empty planet. Especially in view of Scriptures like Isaiah 45:18 and Matthew 5:5.
Consider too that death and sickness are being wiped out from those living here on earth. Remember the 1000 year rule of Christ and the resurrection also happens right here on earth. (John 5:28, 29)
I do believe you are right that some passages in the Bible can be taken perhaps more than one way. We draw the correct conclusion when we harmonize our understanding with the rest of the Bible. Allowing Scripture to explain Scripture. Don’t think God says something in one place and something else in another. 1 Corinthians 14:33 says that , “God is not the author of confusion...” (King James Version)
We have something in common, the Bible, which is our measuring rod of truth. We line up teachings next to it and if it doesn’t line up, if it falls short or goes beyond the Scriptures, well we have to reject it.
2 Timothy 3:16 reminds us, “All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true…” (New Living Translation) it goes on to tell us, “it corrects us,” or as the New World Translation says, “it sets things straight.”
You also stated, “I just think the Bible would be more clear on a final death, a death once and for all, but that is never the case.” Here I have to strongly disagree with you. It does say for some the final death is the “lake of fire,” and then it explicitly states, “This means, or this is the second death.” When we die today we experience the Adamic death and there is a chance to be resurrected, to come back to life. For those who experience the “lake of fire” there is no coming back it is permanent, thus the second DEATH.
Elissabethe, this is highly significant, please don’t forget this. “Hell or hades,” is NOT the lake of fire. It is not the second death. People can come out of “hades or hell,” as Revelation 20:13 confirms.
Hades is the common grave of mankind, not the lake of fire as many believe. It is shown being thrown into “the lake of fire.” Like death, it will be brought to nothing. (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Revelation 20:14 according to the King James Version states: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”With that said, I believe that the confusion lies, not in God’s Word , but often times in poor, inconsistent, Bible translation. We have the tools and sources to check on their scholarship to see if they have allowed their own theological beliefs to influence their renderings. Even the Encyclopedia Americana says under “Hell”: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell.”
Finally, we can both speculate on what God will be doing in other parts of the universe but the Bible is silent on this matter and nothing we can say would be Scripturally verifiable. Also, the Bible does not give any definition of time, suggesting that it is perhaps beyond man’s ability to understand fully. It is like the endless expanse of space, which we also find difficult to comprehend. Time, apparently, is one of those things that only God can fully understand, for he alone is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” (Psalm 90:2)
Although time and eternity cannot be fully comprehended by man, the promise of everlasting life is still a hope well founded in the Bible. In it, the term “everlasting life” occurs nearly 40 times.
That time itself will not end is made clear in the Scriptures. For example, the psalmist said concerning the earth: “It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.” (Ps 104:5) Since the earth will continue to exist, it necessarily follows that time, as an earthly “dimension” or measurement, will not cease. (See Ecclesiastes 1:4)
I’ll check out your other blog later which sounds very interesting. Thanks so much for the invitation.
Let God be true,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
Hello Elissabethe,
Wanted to run something by you. Do you believe the Greek word “hades” is equivalent to “sheol” in Hebrew?
In case you are not sure all we have to do is just see the quotations of the Apostles from the Old Testament, in which they render it “hades.” Let’s go over a couple of them.
For instance, Acts 2:27, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades," is a quotation from Psalm 16:10, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol.”
Check out how some Bible translations have rendered “hades” which appears there in the Greek text:
Acts 2:27 (King James Version) 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27 (New International Version) 27because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. Acts 2:27 (New American Standard Bible) 27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. Now look at the passage that is being quoted in the Hebrew Scriptures or OT: Psalm 16:10 (Young's Literal Translation) 10For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption. Psalm 16:10 (New International Version) 10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. Psalm 16:10 (King James Version) 10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption Psalm 16:10 (New American Standard Bible) 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.1 Corinthians 15:54, 55 is also eye-opening. It says: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave “hades” where is thy victory?" is an allusion to Isaiah 25:8, "He will swallow up death in victory," and to Hosea 13:14, "O death, I will be thy plagues; O sheol, I will be thy destruction."
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Corinthians 15:54, 55
54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
King James Version (KJV)
1 Corinthians 15:55 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
What does it say in the Hebrew Scriptures or OT in the passage this statement was quoting from? Hosea 13:14 (Young's Literal Translation) 14From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where [is] thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.So here is the big question, “What is the state of those in Sheol, hades, the grave?”
See Ecclesiastes 9:10 (Young's Literal Translation) 10All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going. Compare this with other Bible translations that render “sheol” or “hades” as GRAVE. There are no sensations experienced in Sheol or hades/hell. Food for thought anyway, Nick BatchelorNick
Although I risk repetition, I will say this:
Death in the bible, although used in many different contexts, never means extinction, but always separation. The second death (like the biblical second birth or the biblical second resurrection) is believed by most theologians throughout history to be a spiritual death, or final separation from God. Rev 20 says the second death has no power, meaning spiritual power.
It is a second death, not a second annihilation.
Much of the Bible, especially the O.T. is written from a human perspective; therefore, hades or sheol = unseen. The authors knew that the people were gone (unseen) but not extinguished. When something ceases to be in the Bible, it means that it is unseen or gone into the unknown (from the human perspective.)
There are plenty of scriptures which say that the wicked are no more, but this does not necessarily imply annihilation. The wicked cease to exist from a certain place perhaps, but they will show up again when "every knee shall bow before Him" and also for the great white throne judgment.
The lake of fire is believed by many to be figurative. It is impossible to throw "death" and "hell" or "sheol" (unseen) into a literal lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 (NIV) "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Death had already been thrown into the lake of fire, meaning it had been destroyed, so how would the wicked now die?
How do you interpret "forever and ever" in Rev 14 and 20? Forever in the Bible always means "eternal". I have a difficult time believing those who change the definition of very clear terms and blame it on poor translation. Although there can be mistakes in translation, why would God allow such a deceptive term to be carried on for millenia in His word? It's easy to give the excuse of a poor translation when we want a term to say the opposite of its translation. We should do all we can to accept the terms, or at least a similar meaning of the terms.
In all of this studying, my senses have really been heightened toward the everlasting life of the righteous, which is a beautiful thing. I am grateful for this. But again, how can the believer have everlasting life when there does not exist everlasting death? What else could the believer have? One can not exist without the other.
Hello Elissabethe,
I enjoy this on-going discussion. Hope your day has been enjoyable. Could you tell me your thoughts on these questions?
What was the penalty for disobedience for the PERFECT couple Adam and Eve? (Genesis 2:17; 3:3) What did Satan say? (Genesis 3:4) What does this make us think? Where did they go? (Genesis 3:19) Because of sin we inherited, where do WE ALL GO? (Ecclesiastes 3:20)
What does the Bible say about the condition of the dead? (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Not only is there no power in Sheol (Hades/hell) but there is also no knowledge. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
I still think you are missing the point of the second death. You said, “It is a second death, not a second annihilation.” We have already seen that those who experience the first death can and will receive a coming resurrection, for the righteous and unrighteous. (Acts 24:15) Those who are eventually thrown into the symbolic Lake of fire experience the second death do not get out. They do not have a chance ever again to be resurrected to life. They are permanently destroyed. (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
The believer can have everlasting life and the Bible consistently demonstrates that the opposite of everlasting life is everlasting death. Jesus taught us “to be in fear of him (God) who can DESTROY BOTH soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28) (Gehenna, being the lake of fire)
I wanted to briefly talk about what took place in Sodom, Gommorah and Edom.
The Word of God makes mention of fire and sulphur first in connection with the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Genesis 19:24)
This is what is interesting, the Bible writer Jude states that “Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them… are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 7)
But what really happened to those cities? Jesus himself said:
Luke 17:29 (King James Version)29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
For the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah the fire and sulphur meant death. The actual, literal fire stopped burning thousands of years ago. But the destroyed, desolate condition of the cities continues till this very day.
Using similar language the prophet Isaiah foretold concerning the downfall of Edom: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite (forever) its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.” (Isaiah. 34:5, 9, 10)
According to the same prophecy, wild desert creatures were to take up residence in that devastated land. (Isaiah 34:11-17) That being so, the fire whose smoke keeps ascending forever cannot be literal. Instead, it represents total and lasting destruction of the once prosperous Edom.
Those judgments inflicted on Sodom and Gomorrah as well as Edom are a standing, perpetual, or ‘eternal’ admonition, warning example for us today . The effect of the fire that destroyed these cities are everlasting.
Lastly, the Bible tells us that “the last enemy death will be brought to nothing.” (1 Corinthians 15:26) Just like Isaiah the prophet foretells. (Isaiah 25:7) This momentous event obviously would have its final completion after Satan, his demons, and all the wicked and ungodly are destroyed. Like death and hades (sheol/hell), they are not coming back but are gone forever, brought to NOTHING.
Respectfully,
Nick Batchelor
RADIO INTERVIEW THIS WEEKEND -- God willing, I will be the only guest on a live nationwide radio call-in talk show this Sunday night from 8:00-9:00 pm (CST), discussing the topic of final punishment and my book The Fire That Consumes. The program will be broadcast on the Genesis Communications Network, with simultaneous webcast in streaming audio here. (This host and I agree on the topic we will be discussing, but we have substantial disagreements on other important subjects.) Listen live at www.gcnlive.com/mediaPlayers/livePlayer.php
Someone forwarded me this:
Hello Everyone,
For those of you who missed the radio program with Edward Fudge on the subject of "hell," here is the mp3 recording. Definitely worth listening to.
HELL MP3 ONLINE -- You can now hear my June 7, 2009 radio conversation about The Fire That Consumes, in 38 minutes instead of 58 minutes, thanks to gracEmail subscriber Andrew Pritchard of Australia, who kindly deleted the commercials from the original recording. Access the shortened version free of charge on my website here (or go to www.edwardfudge.com/radio-hell.mp3). The streaming audio might take 15-60 seconds to begin.
Pretend that God did not require a life to be lived. Instead he just created a Trillion humans, full grown, and showed them 2 doors. One to hell and one to heaven. Knowing fully that hell was eternal fire(Im not saying it really is) not a single soul would choose the door to hell.
This is how you know, with a decent certainty, that there is no way out of hell.
Why? you say.
Well, the reason why a trillion humans didnt pick the door to hell was because they were coerced. That is NOT a choice. God would have an overwhelming majority of humans in heaven that are only there because they didnt want to suffer--not because they loved or trusted God. They would have followed the Devil into the door to heaven.
To weed out the chaff from the wheat, it seems, God has chosen to allow for much doubt about heaven or hell or even God Himself. Thats why God is not on CNN right now. This allows for the people who really want to seek God to do so without coersion. The rest, knowing the gospel, are sitting there wishing the gospel wasnt true. They keep hoping the God of the bible is not actually the real God--maybe the hollywood god exists--the one who says if it feels good do it--everyone goes to heaven. Whatever they are doing-- they did not ask God if Jesus was their savior-- because if they did God would have instilled faith into their minds to trust and believe.
If they could get out of hell then we are back to the coersion paradox. They already showed they didnt trust God enough to even ask about Christ.
God has left much doubt about many things. This should be no surprise when the vehicle to heaven is faith. Doubt exists, facts remain unclear, parables are told, all to allow faith to be exerted. The idea that anyone knows what Hell really is, in the face of this symbolic picture we are given, is absurd. We are meant to wonder so we can exert the faith that we trust God will do what is right. Whatever he choses is the right thing to do.
The last thing I'll say is that some of the prophecies the New testement writers used from the OT to forshadow Christ seem to scholars as being taken out of context. yet they were placed there by God. Just because there is no clear loophole to Hell does not mean there isnt one hidden. God could easily call us all fools for not seeing clearly. Hell may be exactly what most people think but there is plenty of room for it being nothing like you think. We should teach exactly what the bible says on hell--but not dogmatically expand, or making absolute statements when we dont what the Hell we are talking about.:) Too many Chistians believe they are one of Job's 3, know it all, friends. Perfect in understanding. But most of us look like fools to God in our boasts of absolution. Its simply not clear enough.
I, for one, liked the authors tone BTW
Long time no talk. I know we talked at length about the "hell-fire doctrine," but how do you feel about the "Trinity doctrine?" Do you think it is a clear Bible teaching? Does one need to accept such a teaching to gain salvation?
Any thoughts? Just curious.
Aloha!
Nick
I decided to write a blog in answer to your question about the trinity doctrine. You can find it here:
http://unravelthematter.com/2009/08/16/is-the-trinity-doctrine-biblical/
I would love to have your input.
Smiles,
Elizabeth
Hello, Fellow Christians,
Christians now days are so confused about simple issues. Yes the unsaved's punishment is eternal; their punishment is eternal spiritual death. Remember the parable Jesus talked about regarding the wheat and the chaff. The chaff shall be separated and thrown into the furnace and destroyed .... DESTROYED ... that means annihilation! He who believeth on Him shall NOT perish BUT have eternal (spiritual) life. Use logic hear folks. You have to read between the lines a little bit here and there; this is allegory folks and there is a lot of it in the Bible. Fear not men who can kill just the body, but God who can DESTROY Both. The fire will burn for ever and ever; it doesn't say the unsaved will. I don't know maybe it's a black hole or something, which by the way would totally destroy anything thrown into it! Look there aren't going to be little demons with pitchforks poking you for ever and ever because Satan and his demons are going to be destroyed too. Sure, He's going to destroy Satan and let the fools who fell for his "song & dance" suffer for ever?! And these Christians talking about hate all the time; what's that all about? GOD HATES FAGS! No He doesn't! He doesn't hate anyone. Jesus sat with people like them and the Pharisees said "Hey, why do you sit with these low life's and dregs of society?" If you are Christians you know what he replied. What is all this political nonsense about? God is not a respecter of men, countries, governments or the politics that go along with it. Yeah right, Rush Limbaugh is a Christian. Does anyone remember what Jesus said regarding rich men; I mean filthy rich men and women. "It would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven! That's pretty strong talk isn't it? Yeah, but the next line says "But all things are possible with God" The operative word is possible, not probable and you can't take it out of context. Do any of you understand what outer darkness means? It's allegory for: Nothingness. Think about it. Well, what about the weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yeah, but it does not say eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth which by the way is allegory too. It's amazing how some Christians will take something like that and put it together with something like "never ending fire" and make it into something to frighten people to the Lord! You don't frighten people to God because that just chases them away. They come to God for Love & Truth and that's what He wants them to come for. God asks us to love our enemies not just our friends and family. WOW! So this Loving God wants us to be better than the average human when it comes to love, but He will make unsaved souls suffer eternally? Jesus, just before he died, cried out to God, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do!" He didn't say, "Father make sure they pay for this in Hell for eternity, did he? On the surface it seems that there are some contradictions here, but there aren't any within The New Testament. I'll leave you guessing on that final note.
John Frederick